Skepdude

From the creator of Video Skepdude

Islam is a peaceful religion says the Dalai Lama

But of course it isn’t. Both Christianity and Islam are violent religions, if you stick to their holy books. One need only read through these books to see that. Take a look here for the violence in the Quran. Here’s a recap of some of my favorites (I am looking at a translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali other translations may vary):

  1. If you believe only part of the holy book you will be “consigned to the most grievious penalty” 2:85 (Therefore according to the Quran any real muslim must believe every single word in it or perish)
  2. Kill unbelievers wherever you catch them. 2:191
  3. A great reward is promised to those who fight in the cause of Allah (presumably by killing any unbelievers they catch) 4:74
  4. Unbelievers are the friends of Satan, and you must fight them. 4:76
  5. Don’t be friends with unbelievers. Instead slay them. 4:89
  6. Cut off the hands of thieves 5:38

I could go on and on. The Bible is not free of such violence and intolerance either. But that’s not the point of this entry. The point is that, at least as far as the two most prominent world religions are concerned, they are not peaceful in nature. Their gods are vengeful ones. They are intolerant bullies. If we are to take the holy books literally these are two bloody violent religions, there’s not doubt about it. The only way you can turn them non-violent is if you agree that not everything in the holy books is true or meant to be interpreted literally, even though I don’t really think that “go kill unbelievers” can be interpreted for anything else besided what is explicitly says.

Therefore, Dalai Lama, you are wrong. It is not “totally wrong, unfair” to say that Islam is a violent religion. It is the reality today. Christianity for the most part has been able to shed or ignore it’s violent passages. Islam has not reached that stage yet. Both holy books incite intolerance and killing, maiming and all kinds of atrocities. It is the believers who decide which parts to follow and which to ignore and as of right now, some of the biggest attrocities are being commited by muslims, fueled by their religious belief.

That is not to say that Muslims inevitably must turn violent. I don’t even think that the majority of Muslims are of the violent type. But that is their personal choice. There is nothing peaceful about the religion itself. Those people are more evolved in my eyes than the violent ones. They’re more humane, more modern. They choose to ignore the violence in their religion. They choose to throw out the nasty and keep the nice. As such they have deliberately changed the religion of Islam into something else. But the religion itself is pretty nasty, just the same as the Christian religion is pretty nasty.

I like to think of modern day Nazis. It is possible for modern day nazis to still believe in the superiority of the Arian race and such, but to be against physial violence against other races. Does that mean that Nazism is/was not violent? Or does it mean that the modern day followers that I am speaking of have transformed a violent thing into a less violent one? In what sense is a philosphy which asks its followers to kill, kill and kill some more not violent?

A philosophy is either violent or it isn’t. One that asks for blood of any oposing views is undeniably violent. Of course it is up to its followers to decide if they should follow the dictates of their philosophy or not. The people are violent or peaceful. They have a choice. The philosophy doesn’t. It is unfair to call muslims violent people. That is indeed not true. It is not unfair to call Islam, or Christianity, a violent religion. It is dishonest to try and be politically correct by calling a rabid dog docile. Don’t you think?

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July 15, 2008 - Posted by | Religion | , , , , , ,

10 Comments »

  1. Peace be to those who seek Truth and Guidance

    Yes,read through the holy book of the Qur’an, don’t take excerpts of it and conclude that Islam is violent because of a verse. The verse is in direct relation with the verse before it and after it and it all has a context behind it. The Qur’an says – God does not like the Aggressor, If you are greeted with hostility you have the right to give hostilility in return but if your enemy inclines to peace then you incline to peace for God does not like the Aggressor.
    The Qur’an actually says in another verse and I’m paraphrasing if someone does harm to you can give them the exact harm or forgive them. And forgiving is better. That is not violent.
    If you read the Qur’an and the Bible with an open mind, seeking Truth and not looking for something to prove a point then by the permission of God, it will be found if God wills.
    And if you are not muslim, how can you interpret a book written in classical arabic, and with out delving into the language and the context of the revelation of the verse?
    More research must be done before the conclusions of Islam and Christianity are violent religions can be accurately say. Now are is there violence? yes, are there violent people that muslim? yes. Is hostility a right that can be used by muslims in certain conditions?yes. In certain conditons, Dear Blogger, are you aware that by Islam , muslims can’t attack unarmed men,women or children, can’t even cut down trees in war. In war.
    Thank you for saying it is unfair to call musims violent people. It is also unfair,(where we disagree) to cal Islam a violent religion.
    We are to incline to peace. In fact, Surah Kafirun – Kafirun meaning disbelievers in which God tells us what to say to people who disbelieve. It doesn’t say kill them, or insult them instead, translated in english it says

    In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

    109.001
    YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
    PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
    SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

    109.002
    YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
    PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
    SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

    109.003
    YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
    SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

    109.004
    YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
    PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
    SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

    109.005
    YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
    SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

    109.006
    YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
    PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
    SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

    And that’s clear – To you be your Way and to me mine.
    That is Islam my dear Blogger.

    Peace be upon those who seek Truth and Guidance

    Comment by Abdul At-Tawwaab | July 15, 2008 | Reply

  2. Sounds like you just got pistol whipped, but in a peaceful way. The world is all about peace. No one takes responsibility for their actions. It’s all about peace. We peacefully kill babies in the name of human rights. We may even elect a president that is ok with choice. After all it is all about peace.

    Comment by Archie | July 15, 2008 | Reply

  3. Actually Abdul you make my point perfectly. You seem to be the modern, humane muslim, what all muslims should aspire to be, and I congratulate you on that.

    However, I must judge the religion or philosophy for what it says, not how different people interpret it.

    — Kill unbelievers wherever you catch them. 2:191

    Can you explain in what context is that verse not violent? Am I taking it out of context? If yes I would like to have that pointed out, in what way I am doing that.

    You say not to pick out a specific verse, but I am not. Turn any page and you will find death, and hell fire mentioned numerous times. Those are direct threats of violence, if not immediate, but in the after life. In what sense is that peaceful? Do as I say or else- is not a peaceful proposition!

    Furthermore, if we choose to ignore certain verses because we don’t like them, on what basis do we make this choice?

    If anything Abdul is actually pointing out the contradictions within the religion, just like the Bible. In the Bible one of the ten commandments is “Thou shall not kill” and in other places it specifically demands that you kill people. That is a contradiction which most christians have resolved by completely ignoring the killing part as if it did not exist. But they haven’t updated their holy book though, the violence is still there, and as long as it’s there the religion itself is violent!

    Same goes for Islam. Unless you move away from the notion that the holy book is the unfailing word of God and everything in there is true and must be obeyed, you cannot say that the religion is peaceful. Nope, sorry, regardless of how many nice things you may say, that does not nullify the nasties, and as long as there are nasty commandments and rules the religion remains violent.

    Comment by Skepdude | July 15, 2008 | Reply

  4. Peace be unto those who seek Truth and Guidance

    Verse 2:191 it may be that you mean another verse
    or
    Did you translate the entire verse?
    My english translation of it is as follows : And fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.

    So as I have said, while violence is used and is a right, it is also restricted. One must understand, Islam is a very peaceful religion, but being peaceful does not mean allow one’s self to be murdered or slaughtered. When people are being persecuted and murdered for their belief in God, or their religion, would you not expect self defense to come into play? and as that verse clearly states even in the English translation – … but do not trangress. Surely, Allah loves not the transgressors.

    There is no contradiction in the religion,for the religion is to Submit to God. That is what Islam means. And fighting is prescribed when you are fought against in Islam, so in Islam, yes there is such a thing as self-defense. In war, when fighting against a hostile enemy, as I’ve stated , you fight, but if the enemy incline to peace, then you incline to peace.
    I’ll give you an example.
    In the time of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) during war with the disbelievers who wanted to stomp out the Muslims, A muslim and his enemy was fighting, the muslim got the better of his enemy. Right before he killed him, his enemy said Ash-shadu an La ilaaha illa Allah. which means I bear witness There is no God but God. This is how one becomes a muslim. so at this point the muslim fighter was suppose to stop fighting. Unfortunately he did not and killed this man thinking he said that just to get away or get the upper hand. So , when it got back to the Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W), The Messenger of God, he became very angry and he asked and I’m paraphrasing – Did you open up his heart and see that he had no faith? – He was admonishing the action of killing the man even in war. Because he took his shahada. He converted. That’s Islam. That’s in the Qur’an, those who take the shahada have accepted Islam and are brethren of the religion. Muslims are not suppose to kill Muslims. Therefore, The Qur’an nor the religion promotes violence but it does promote self defense and fighting in the cause of God. That is not a contradiction that is a right which we have.

    So my suggestion dear Skepdude would be to read the Qur’an fully as I have said, not pick out parts of verses or verses and take that for face value, there’s more to that , there is a related verse before it and after it.

    Peace be upon those who seek Truth and Guidance

    Comment by Abdul At-Tawwaab | July 15, 2008 | Reply

  5. Peace be unto those who seek Truth and Guidance

    My dear Skepdude, I apologize, I just remembered another story to explain how peaceful this religion is.
    During the war in which The Muslims were fighting with the disbelievers, the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) signed a treaty to end the war. The treaty did not favor the muslims, it favored the disbelievers, in fact in signing the treaty, the Messenger of God, couldn’t even write the Messenger of God, in order for the treaty to go through he wrote His name instead of His title as if He was a meer general just fighting to fight with no cause. He was fighting Because to Him was revealed the Word of God and God gave him a duty to convey the message. Anyways, the treaty was signed and the muslims abided by the treaty. The disbelievers of whom the treaty was in favor, before the treaty period was over, broke the treaty and again began killing muslims. So , the muslims prepared for war. So when they muslims gathered to around the city of Mecca prepared for battle, there were so many muslims, the disbelievers, decided not to fight and instead became muslim and they were accepted. They weren’t punished or killed or persecuted, the Prophet (P.B.U.H) didn’t allow that. Even the man and woman who mutilated the body of the uncle of the Prophet (P.B.U.H) were accepted. That is Islam. God makes muslims. God guides people to His Guidance. And that is Islam, submitting to God. As I have stated, inclination to peace is seen clearly through the chapter directed to unbelievers. – you go your way, I’ll go mine.

    Also, Hell-fire, the Qur’an explains Hell-fire and the devil very clearly and the reason for it. That has nothing to do with violence. That has to do with obeying your Lord.

    Peace be unto those who Seek Truth and Guidance

    Comment by Abdul At-Tawwaab | July 16, 2008 | Reply

  6. Surah 33

    60-Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:

    61-They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).

    Without mercy for anyone who stirs up “sedition”, which to me means anyone who goes against the teachings of the religion. In other words anyone who denies Islam and talks against it must be found , seized and slain, without mercy.

    Surely you can’t accuse me of cherry picking or taking this out of context. This is not about self defense or war. It is simply about crushing anyone who rebels against the religion. Please notice that the verses do not specify that only the ones that bear arms against muslims must be slain, it simply says anyone who stirs sedition, which is equivalent to saying anyone who rebels in any way, including words only.

    How is that not violent?

    Comment by Skepdude | July 16, 2008 | Reply

  7. Abdul, you say “So my suggestion dear Skepdude would be to read the Qur’an fully as I have said, not pick out parts of verses or verses and take that for face value, there’s more to that , there is a related verse before it and after it.”

    But, that’s what you’re doing Abdul. You’re picking out the bits that sound alright. Nobody doubts they’re in there. But there are also contradictory passages which say the opposite.

    That’s the beauty of religious texts such as the koran and bible. You can pick and choose which bits you want to believe, and ignore the rest. I’m thankful that you’re ignoring the violent bits.

    Somehow in your mind you’ve managed to justify your choice of what the real meaning is, rather than admit that the koran is a mess. Don’t worry, Fundy Christians do it too.

    Comment by Gib | July 16, 2008 | Reply

  8. Peace Be upon those who seek Truth and Guidance

    actually, dear Gib, in my first statement I displayed a complete surah or chapter , translated in english from the Qur’an, it speaks for itself. In my comments after that, I reviewed a selection in which Mr. Skepdude, used to claim that Islam was a violent religion. So no I’m not taking bits and pieces out, but All in all it is for you, Gib, and Skepdude and even myself to read fully. So no I’m not takig out bits. and in fact, the stories that I told were stories of examples of how the Prophet (S.A.W) implemented Islam in the real world, that’s a historical fact.

    So again, my suggestion is to read the Qur’an fully, and not pick out parts of verses or verses and take that for face value, there’s a verse before and after it.
    Now,to my dear Skepdude, from what I understand about this dialogue is that you’re quoting from this Qur’an, finding verses in which seem violent, but as I’ve said in my first statement, you shuold also look at the context surrounding it’s revelation. Hypocrites – a person who believed then disbelieved, but acts as if one believes. The Hypocrites described within the Qur’an were being rebellious, but to what and why? When Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) went to Medina, He settled a dispute amongst the people with his presence because he was the Messenger of God and they pledged their allegiance to him and not to one of their own leaders. Peace reigned in Medina. So when a Hypocrite – read verse 60. It doesn’t say point them out, but rather God says He will stir the muslims up against them and so on and so forth.
    One must remember, the Qur’an in is the word of God, so this is God speaking, talking about a situation, explaining, making things clear. Revelation, not a man doing it with his own reason.

    Secondly, research how the Prophet took care of the situation of the Hypocrites and how exactly they stirred up sedition in the city. By leaving the battle field during a battle in a war, or by trying to cause nationalistic dissent amongst the people coming from Mecca with their hosts of Medina. Due to lack in time on my part I’m letting you know this much but research.

    Peace be upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    Comment by Abdul At-Tawwaab | July 16, 2008 | Reply

  9. Abdul, I find it hard to see how inciting someone to slay someone else wherever they are to be found is not violent. Whatever the context you are alluding to, the verse itself simply says that they stir sedition. The context you are referring to is open to interpretation. Unless sedition means specifically them trying to kill you, self defense cannot come into play here. You yourself say that sedition was them “trying to cause nationalistic dissent amongst the people coming from Mecca with their hosts of Medina.” Does causing dissent warrant them being killed? How is that not violence?

    My point is that the verse itself, nor the preceding or the one immediately following it does not specify what sedition is, as such anyone could reasonably interpret it as meaning rebellion, even not armed one.

    This ambiguity is there and cannot be denied. The fact that such ambiguity exists supports my idea that Islam is in fact a violent religion.

    I mean come one let’s be honest here. A peaceful philosophy will not mention the words kill, slay and such almost in every page. A peaceful philosophy will not threaten others with eternal damnation and suffering and burning, multiple times every page. Those elements are violent and not peaceful, regardless of the context.

    You keep telling me not to look at a specific verse. Unless I am taking things out of context, I am allowed to look at a specific verse for what it says. Now we can play word games for years here and not come to an agreement.

    What makes a philosophy violent? If it has the power to incite people to commit acts of violence, not self defense, it is violent pure and simple. Now can Islam be interpreted in a peaceful way? Sure it can. You are a perfect example of that. However, that is not the point. The point is that as long as there is such ambiguity it retains the ability to incite violence, which in turn makes it violent, and recent history has shown that. Not so recent history has shown that with Christianity as well.

    Comment by Skepdude | July 16, 2008 | Reply

  10. Peace be upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    hmm, interesting point. So rather a person’s interpretation of a verse may incite violence. A person with understanding of the verse and it’s context, so on and so forth, would more likely be to not be violent.
    So, Islam gives room for violence, in self defense, in acts of war,etc. If that makes it a violent religion than so be it.
    However, that verse is talking about an action God will take so the real question is… do you believe God can behave in a violent manner or accept violent actions.
    What I’m saying is, violence is restricted within Islam,as the Qur’an says. Believers in God, are not suppose to be the aggressor.
    And I still don’t understand, why hell and it’s description is a problem.
    Let’s be clear.

    God is the creator of All things.
    Some of His creation he blessed with reason and choice – free will if you will.
    Their purpose is to serve Him.
    Those that disobey Him go to Hell, and it’s described in the Qur’an.
    Those that obey Him go to Heaven and that’s described in the Qur’an.
    That’s a basic concept. If you think that’s biased or violent then you have to take that up with your Lord.

    In my opinion, I think peace and violence are words that people think can’t coexist. It’s totally untrue. This is not a perfect world, in this world such things coexist. In one period there is peace, in another there’s war. In order live peaceful, one may have to fight off those who would want to take away one’s peace.
    God knows His creation, so don’t think there is any misconception that people will get violent or defend themselves or go to war in order to get their freedom. In the Qur’an it restricts when violence should be used in order to get Eternal Peace in the Hereafter with God.
    So the morals and codes that are connected with peace, justice, truth,modesty,patience, conviction, etc. All of that is in the Qur’an. And so is the means to be able to live freely, stand your ground, this is where I’m at, You don’t have to be there, you do your thing I’ll do mines. In the case that you seek to sabotage my thing or hurt my thing that has nothing to do with you then,Allah guide us.

    Fight when you’re fought against.

    When God mentioned the Hypocrites, their stirring up sedition which means stirring up strife between people to cause violence amongst peaceful people. Then Allah says how He with deal with them.
    Whether it be through the muslims or another way.

    Who has the authority to deem a manner peaceful, just, or honest better than one who sees and knows all things?
    No one.
    In that case, who has the authority to know how to handle situations best, The Creator of All things or His creation?

    So yes, the Qur’an has the power to incite violence, in that case any doctrine has the power to incite violence. What makes the Qur’an different is that it places a Criterion on the life and how to live it. Judge with Justice, Fight when fought against. Incline to peace. and in war even, find them and slay them.

    Now you may have a problem with that, but I assure there is no contradiction. There is a balance. Islam is the middle way. If someone slaps you, you can turn the other cheek or slap them back. you have the choice, one choice may be better than the other depending on the cirumstance but you have the choice.

    I thank you,for your complement. All praises belong to God my dear Skepdude. And I am enjoying our dialogue.

    but you’re right the ambiguity in some verses or even the lack of understanding of the reader or mindset or mentality of the reader may cause the reader to interpret a verse or verses in a different way, sometimes violent way.
    But one’s interpretation doesn’t make the religion violent.
    And when I think violent I mean like barbaric it’s telling people to kill all the time and do this and that. No it says it but when it’s needed, when it’s appropriate, when time calls for it. not all willy nilly. In fact, peace and peaceful solutions , solutions other than violence are deemed victories in the Qur’an – Surah Fath. but there are times when violence is called for. And let’s be honest, there are times when violence is called for.

    And God knows best.

    May God lead us all truth and His Mercy and Forgiveness, Guide us aright and Straigten out our affairs. Lord Willing.
    Peace be upon those who Seek Truth and Guidance

    Comment by Abdul At-Tawwaab | July 17, 2008 | Reply


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